I am no help with these terms because TikTok confounds me, as does most of modern popular culture. Sorry! Unrepentant old lady over here. But it sounds like part of the need to construct terms for both things is based in our cultural inability to hold ambiguity or ambivalence. You mean, you can like someone and also not like them AT THE SAME TIME? You can love someone and also dislike or resent some of their habitual behaviors? It's like once you've decided someone is "the One" then they cease to be another imperfect, annoying human and you have to just love everything about them. What a set-up that is.
There are red flags and signs of abuse. Women should listen to their instincts, for sure. And there are also reactivities based in trauma that should be taken to therapy. But it sounds like some of this has to do with women's needs being habitually unmet in heterosexual relationships, but instead of saying "Fuck all this mess" they are creating complicated rubrics to assess potential mates in the hopes that someday some magical guy will show up that actually meets their needs. Not to be a total cynical asshole, but good luck with that, sister.
This yes: “it sounds like some of this has to do with women's needs being habitually unmet in heterosexual relationships, but instead of saying "Fuck all this mess" they are creating complicated rubrics to assess potential mates”! A lot of it is in jest, too, and I think women are just having fun poking the bear.
amen to all of that ~ life involves both the bitter and the sweet; you only know one bc you also know the other. I too am baffled by tik tok so I may not understand this question as clearly as others, but I do know that relationships are hard, even when they’re good.
I am not super online, but based on my experience, the ick feels a little like a chill where everything shifts and you think, “Oh no, this might not work out, despite my happiness right now. Because that comment, etc. felt like our plans or views might not align.” Or is this a red flag?
I was bothered by most of the items on the ick list from the Tik Tok creator, though. Don’t a large number of them just weed out lower income men or men from certain cultures (I’m thinking rural Midwest because that’s where I’m from)? Certain items seem neutral, but then, when the creator describes them, seem coded not just as performing masculinity, but sometimes performing upper middle class masculinity. I mean, class preferences are understandable, but then is that really what “the ick” is—a series of preferences for stereotypical masculinity in which the man protects and provides and his financial security allows for that? Likely other women have different lists, but this one seemed like a list of classed tropes that just stand in for what a man “should be.” In the end, it seemed a list that was far more about finding a specific type of person with the markers of success rather than an actual person with real quirks, and curiosities, and, yes, flaws.
I thought it was interesting in that TikTok you shared on "My Ick List" how many times the creator says "grow up" about the men she's dating e.g. She mentions needing a man to have clean sheets, curtains, be financially savvy, the able to do "blue tasks" such as moving heavy furniture. It seems like the ick is a signal that a male partner isn't going to be able to perform masculinity as desired or you're going to be trapped in a relationship with someone who isn't responsible or is like a child that needs to be taken care of. Personally, when I was younger and terrified of being in a real relationship, I used to get the ick whenever someone was "too" nice to me, or if they showed signs of wanting to commit too early on -- how gross. I also found people in active addiction a massive turn-on so my "intuition"/trauma wasn't a great barometer. These days I find things like my (female) partner paying the bill, taking care of the house and car, buying me flowers etc a massive turn on so things have improved! A friend of mine recently told me about getting the ick because the guy she was dating had a smelly hat and coat (understandable, though the rest of his personal hygiene was on-point); he worked out so much that his arms looked out of proportion to his hands (rough translation: not the right amount of masculine); and he sort of hung around her house "working on his novel" but didn't have a lot else going -- this one I get. It's not super attractive to feel like your partner doesn't have their own thing going on, especially if you do -- there's a mismatch in values or priorities perhaps that could cause problems down the road. I have another friend who loves chasing unavailable men and who doesn't get the ick for things like smoking twenty cigarettes a day, but who, when an available man wants to date her will find anything to complain about (his tattoos, his discomort when he attended a sound bath, his accent). To me that sounds like fear of falling in love with someone available and potentially getting hurt dressed up as legitimate turn-offs.
This is so interesting to me: “the ick is a signal that a male partner isn't going to be able to perform masculinity as desired”! I think you’re right and this is one of many reasons the icks are all over the place for heterosexual women— some masculine traits feel attractive (even if they’re “toxic”), others a turn off (often in light of critiques of masculinity).
There are times I’ve had the bristle reaction with my husband- usually when I was very touched out and didn’t want anyone to touch me and he didn’t read that cue from me.
I feel like the ick seems more likely to end the relationship. I experienced this with my first boyfriend in my current city, I literally looked at him one day in bed and felt grossed out thinking about kissing him or being near him at all. A big factor for me was him frequently leaving me home alone to hang out with other friends in the apartment complex and not respecting my law school schedule in any effort to prioritize time with me. He was also 4 years younger than me which felt like a lot in my early 20s. He did come from a lower income home than me but I don’t think that would have bothered me if he wasn’t frequently eating all my groceries while I slept when I I was trying to create a budget for the first time in my life. It was only 2 months of my life but I still feel grossed out when I remember that relationship.
I am no help with these terms because TikTok confounds me, as does most of modern popular culture. Sorry! Unrepentant old lady over here. But it sounds like part of the need to construct terms for both things is based in our cultural inability to hold ambiguity or ambivalence. You mean, you can like someone and also not like them AT THE SAME TIME? You can love someone and also dislike or resent some of their habitual behaviors? It's like once you've decided someone is "the One" then they cease to be another imperfect, annoying human and you have to just love everything about them. What a set-up that is.
There are red flags and signs of abuse. Women should listen to their instincts, for sure. And there are also reactivities based in trauma that should be taken to therapy. But it sounds like some of this has to do with women's needs being habitually unmet in heterosexual relationships, but instead of saying "Fuck all this mess" they are creating complicated rubrics to assess potential mates in the hopes that someday some magical guy will show up that actually meets their needs. Not to be a total cynical asshole, but good luck with that, sister.
This yes: “it sounds like some of this has to do with women's needs being habitually unmet in heterosexual relationships, but instead of saying "Fuck all this mess" they are creating complicated rubrics to assess potential mates”! A lot of it is in jest, too, and I think women are just having fun poking the bear.
amen to all of that ~ life involves both the bitter and the sweet; you only know one bc you also know the other. I too am baffled by tik tok so I may not understand this question as clearly as others, but I do know that relationships are hard, even when they’re good.
I am not super online, but based on my experience, the ick feels a little like a chill where everything shifts and you think, “Oh no, this might not work out, despite my happiness right now. Because that comment, etc. felt like our plans or views might not align.” Or is this a red flag?
I was bothered by most of the items on the ick list from the Tik Tok creator, though. Don’t a large number of them just weed out lower income men or men from certain cultures (I’m thinking rural Midwest because that’s where I’m from)? Certain items seem neutral, but then, when the creator describes them, seem coded not just as performing masculinity, but sometimes performing upper middle class masculinity. I mean, class preferences are understandable, but then is that really what “the ick” is—a series of preferences for stereotypical masculinity in which the man protects and provides and his financial security allows for that? Likely other women have different lists, but this one seemed like a list of classed tropes that just stand in for what a man “should be.” In the end, it seemed a list that was far more about finding a specific type of person with the markers of success rather than an actual person with real quirks, and curiosities, and, yes, flaws.
Absolutely so much classism in that one list in particular, but also in the trend generally.
I thought it was interesting in that TikTok you shared on "My Ick List" how many times the creator says "grow up" about the men she's dating e.g. She mentions needing a man to have clean sheets, curtains, be financially savvy, the able to do "blue tasks" such as moving heavy furniture. It seems like the ick is a signal that a male partner isn't going to be able to perform masculinity as desired or you're going to be trapped in a relationship with someone who isn't responsible or is like a child that needs to be taken care of. Personally, when I was younger and terrified of being in a real relationship, I used to get the ick whenever someone was "too" nice to me, or if they showed signs of wanting to commit too early on -- how gross. I also found people in active addiction a massive turn-on so my "intuition"/trauma wasn't a great barometer. These days I find things like my (female) partner paying the bill, taking care of the house and car, buying me flowers etc a massive turn on so things have improved! A friend of mine recently told me about getting the ick because the guy she was dating had a smelly hat and coat (understandable, though the rest of his personal hygiene was on-point); he worked out so much that his arms looked out of proportion to his hands (rough translation: not the right amount of masculine); and he sort of hung around her house "working on his novel" but didn't have a lot else going -- this one I get. It's not super attractive to feel like your partner doesn't have their own thing going on, especially if you do -- there's a mismatch in values or priorities perhaps that could cause problems down the road. I have another friend who loves chasing unavailable men and who doesn't get the ick for things like smoking twenty cigarettes a day, but who, when an available man wants to date her will find anything to complain about (his tattoos, his discomort when he attended a sound bath, his accent). To me that sounds like fear of falling in love with someone available and potentially getting hurt dressed up as legitimate turn-offs.
This is so interesting to me: “the ick is a signal that a male partner isn't going to be able to perform masculinity as desired”! I think you’re right and this is one of many reasons the icks are all over the place for heterosexual women— some masculine traits feel attractive (even if they’re “toxic”), others a turn off (often in light of critiques of masculinity).
There are times I’ve had the bristle reaction with my husband- usually when I was very touched out and didn’t want anyone to touch me and he didn’t read that cue from me.
I feel like the ick seems more likely to end the relationship. I experienced this with my first boyfriend in my current city, I literally looked at him one day in bed and felt grossed out thinking about kissing him or being near him at all. A big factor for me was him frequently leaving me home alone to hang out with other friends in the apartment complex and not respecting my law school schedule in any effort to prioritize time with me. He was also 4 years younger than me which felt like a lot in my early 20s. He did come from a lower income home than me but I don’t think that would have bothered me if he wasn’t frequently eating all my groceries while I slept when I I was trying to create a budget for the first time in my life. It was only 2 months of my life but I still feel grossed out when I remember that relationship.